+Mana compared to +Damage

ZedTheRed

So I fired up SK for the first time in a little while (been playing a boatload of Dead by Daylight on PS4) and I noticed that SK had received an awesome update. Something I've been pondering here and there since my fresh games is the benefits of choosing +mana vs +damage when leveling and purchasing items.

There's immediately a lot that comes to mind and I'd love to discuss the finer points of this with you guys and illuminate the values of skill leveling decisions.

1. How necessary are mana increases in each difficulty? I'm just getting back and it's all hazy for me. What's your experience?
When I started a new game I chose fireball for my primary skill (yeah I know most peeps on here aren't riding the fireball train.. so sue me! I like what I like.) and I decided to try focusing on increasing fireball's damage and my overall mana pool. This leads into a high single-target damage build early on since you aren't diluting your primary skill's damage or your mana for aoe skills like ring of fire or explode and I've enjoyed the overall power curve of this path for the first few levels.

2. When do you get different kinds of mana and why? Maybe I'll run the numbers on the actual bang-for-your-buck you get out of each and make a spreadsheet or something. (Don't get all excited! I'm only slightly above average at math in a state that isn't exactly proud of its academic performance. Nonetheless, I am interested in doing this if I can figure it all out.)
There's obviously a relationship between +max, +regen, and -cost. (Are there breakpoints where it's mathematically optimal to opt for one over the other? There must be, right?! )

3. I know SK and SB haven't been updated or changed much in a long time, so is there a really solid meta for the highest difficulties or are there many paths to glory? Or, more simply put, Have we already reached a point where the end game is played the same way by most people or do we seem to have a lot of methods/play styles?
I know someone answered my questions about getting to the highest difficulty on SK a while back. I'll have to dig that post up and start getting busy (after I get off work, do nine loads of laundry, do. all my grocery shopping, and watch some YouTube videos on spreadsheets.

I'm looking forward to hearing from anyone that's still around and getting back into the thick of things in this community. Also, Raptis made this post about iOS and Android fans of the Solomon series having something to look forward to on Halloween! (I couldn't be more excited for this Halloween!)

That's all I've got for now!
-Zed

Peppermaster

Welcome back Zed. Long time since the "release" of Solomon Dark. 

1+2. +Max mana is useless because you can get up to 80% mana cost reduction by leveling up battle mage without using items. In my opinion, the most optimal strategy for dealing with mana cost is by:

 reset player until the yellow guy sells battle mage -> fully upgrade battle mage by using watch ad for gold -> start game and forget about mana cost until you reach wizard difficulty -> Max out Channel Mana ->  You will get about 80% mana cost reduction and 18 mana per sec without items -> Use items with +1 or +2 on Battle mage or mana regen if you have mana problem.

The only time you get +max mana is when you have no other choice. However, because bribe

the destiny is now free, getting +max mana is a waste of skill point.

3. The meta has not been changed much. The only difference is that because of the addition of ad money and free bribe the destiny, it is easier to get optimal build. I think all builds (maybe for steam jet) are good right now but some like frost missile are still better. Fuck Fire and Hail Frost

I've been putting discussions and some solomon dark challenge maps while you were gone. If you are interested in any, feel free to check them out. :D 

P.S.

SK won't be getting significant change but SB will. There will be new monsters and bosses from Solomon Dark. Also, perks will be changed drastically, similar to Solomon Dark. 

ZedTheRed

PEPPER! I'm glad to see that you're still here :D Sadly I don't have an Android device and therefore can't be of much use for the Android beta that is currently going on, but let's see if I can't manage to be productive despite that!

1. + 2. YOU JUST SAVED ME A LOT OF TIME! Guess there's no need for a spreadsheet in that case (bittersweet). Does Raptis feel the same way about +max mana? If so I would assume that things will be different in SK Deluxe.

3. Good to know. 

I had to reset my laptop because it wasn't working and I had to do a total reset (I didn't download or watch anything fishy!) and I haven't replaced Solomon Dark yet. I think I've found a reddit page that still has the Solomon Dark file though, so no worries on that front. 

P.S.

That's AWESOME! Thanks for the update.

SomeRandomHEFan

>However, because bribe the destiny is now free, getting +max mana is a waste of skill point.

I'd argue that Bribe Destiny is a cheat and that no strategy using it should be considered legitimate. There's a reason why you have to specifically enable it in the options menu in Keep and why it's an absurdly expensive perk in Boneyard, now that both games made it free.

That's not to say that Bribe Destiny shouldn't ever be used. Like all cheats, it's perfectly acceptable for beginners to use it as a last resort, or in a cheat run where you're just trying to break the game.

However, I would strongly discourage its usage in any other situations. It can really hurt the overall enjoyment of the game by eliminating one of its main components (having to improvise based on an unpredictable and limited selection of skills). And as you implied, there's no point in ever taking any of the weaker skills when you always have better alternatives available.

As such, I'd advise against including it in any recommendation for general strategies.

ZedTheRed

I just think of bribe destiny as another way to play the game. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I do think there's another valid point of view in play.

Maybe this will explain why I don't think of bribe destiny as a cheat:

people that only play hardcore mode in Diablo might argue that anyone not playing in hardcore mode is essentially applying a cheat to make the game easier. After all, character permadeath adds a lot of weight to each encounter and means that players will itemize and play more carefully. This is more challenging and adds a layer of depth, so it's obviously the better way to play right?

Any longtime Diablo player will tell you that playing hardcore mode and risking losing your time investment in the game is more like a modifier for people that have grown bored of the traditional experience than it is the intended experience. Frustration is a part of life and many things and can often be a part of design to offer a more rewarding experience in the long run, but something like losing all your progress or being weaker and unable to progress because of bad rng is frustration that doesn't always add to the experience for everyone.

You might think of random skill selections as a part of the game (that may even be a part of Raptis' vision for the game) but some people see it as a frustrating modifier that sabotages the difficulty curve of the game.

All that being said, yeah, play the way that's fun for you and try new things out if you want to get more out of the game.

Raptisoft

Bribe destiny is absolutely a cheat and I spend every day drowning my sorrow that I ever included it in the game.

See, here's the problem... shortly before I wrote Solomon's Keep, I played Torchlight.  And Torchlight kept doing this thing that I really hated... I'd get a level up, click on a skill, and the skill next level would say something like "Ember Bolt: Increase Ember Bolt Damage by .00000000000000000000000000000000025%"

That's the least fun thing you could ever play!  So in Keep, I wanted to make it so that every single levelup was powerful enough to change how you play completely.  That's why all the damage increases are like +50% or +100% or higher.  Each level up, your playstyle is intended to be way different-- so you feel like each levelup really accomplishes something.

Now, if you go straight through taking magic missile every single time, by the time you get to level 10, you're basically ready to kill bosses with like 6-7 hits.  It's fun to play after you've really mastered the game (I used to play Diablo 2 with /players 8 all the time)... but it's horribly unbalancing.

Thus, the randomness is there to allow the uber levelups, while at the same time making it so sure, sometimes you get a lucky run... but mostly Keep/Boneyard is supposed to be a game about doing the best you can with the hand life deals you.

In SKHD, it will fall upon modders to mod it in.  But there will be no "official" implementation.

chad_b_morrow

I like that approach and think it's the right one but I've always appreciated having bribe destiny because unless you happened to get lucky enough to max out battle mage and channel mana, very shortly you'd hit a wall where you never had enough mana to survive. Mana starvation seems like it's incredibly punishing until a switch is flipped and now it will never be an issue again. Very binary.

ZedTheRed

Well, that's fascinating! So I guess bribe destiny sabotages the difficulty curve of the game if anything :))

ZedTheRed

I'm perfectly cool with bribe being removed from future Solomon games (especially if it makes Raptis drown in sorrow on a daily basis). But, will we have something that provides the information that bribe currently does? I appreciate being able to look somewhere and see all the possible skills, their level requirements, and so on. Will we have like a.. spell index or something?

Raptisoft

Well, in Dark I did implement a perk (that I intend to also have in KeepHD) that permits you a single re-roll of skills.  I think that's fair enough-- it still doesn't let you beeline to uberpower.

ZedTheRed

I think that's fair. And it being a perk does mean you at least have to trade off some potential power. So I think that's an interesting decision that we'll be making.