A brief questions about Rogue

Peppermaster

@Raptisoft

So, I was trying to make Rogue skills that truly fit your rules(especially the no spell-like skills part) and I faced a dilemma on one skill. So here is the question that I have for:

Do you think a skill called grenade is against your no-spell rule and should be replaced with throwing a consumable item called grenade(or throwable potion)?(or maybe screw all the throwable stuff?)

Before I move on and talk about the issue, I'll explain what grenade skill is: your throw a grenade at a target location and it explode after 2 second delay. You can upgrade this skill to apply various different effects(smoke screen, knockback, suction, etc.)It is well suited for comboing with any knockbacks, attacking unsuspected enemies while running away, and supporting allies.

 I know that grenade skill pretty much fits your definition of spell-like skill; however, the main concern I have on it is that if it is used as consumables instead, then it would make grenade/potion nearly impossible to be a crucial element of rogue's arsenal because it is very cumbersome to gather important grenade/potion, the number of use is very limited, and it is not even cost efficient at all(why even waste a gold to get an inferior spell when a mage can just spend a skill point to spam a better one indefinitely?). Because of these reason and the fun nature of grenades(and combo potentials), I am more towards grenade being a skill despite of being a spell-like skill.

I know most of my idea may possibly not be implemented in the game and I may be going too far right now but at least I want to make skill idea with highest quality as possible. Thanks for the all the great work and as I keep saying it: safe winter.

P.S. If you think grenade is unfitting for the setting of the solomon universe, there are three explanations how rogue might have gotten this thing:

1. The merchants from the east might have brought this exotic new weapon.

2. Fire Hex-Industries may have created this iron ball filled with volatile phlogiston and salamander dung.

3. It is just a iron ball filled with volatile potion waste produced by the University to promote recycling.

Agratah

@Peppermaster
Here I come, disturbing the peace again :D

While I know this is not for me, I would like to share my 2 cents on this.
If we look at some big games, like The Witcher 3 and Horizon: Zero Dawn, these both utilize consumeables like grenades (literal grenades in Horizon and bombs in The Witcher.)
They both have a fairly low amount of bombs, but they also both have a way to replenish them. (Although in Horizon you can craft them mid combat lol)
And I think that works pretty well.

So: If you want it to be used, and don’t want people to wait for a shop, there can maybe be a way to make or craft these, perhaps out of combat.

Not sure if it would be a bit much work though.

Peppermaster

@Agratah

Horizon: Zero Dawn's model isn't really suitable imo because it requires getting materials to create a consumable combat item. Witcher 3's model, on the other hand, is far better and more suitable than any other so far but it still requires items(alcohol) to replenish it. 

If Solomon game is like Dungeon Crawl or Pixel dungeon where it is nearly impossible to spam magic, these consumable grenades that requires gathering resources would be fine. However, considering how mages just spam powerful spell without spending anything other than just mana which will be refilled within few seconds, it is very difficult to make consumable grenades that is not an inferior version of mages' spells in this game. It is basically same as how no one really uses throwable potions in Diablo 2.

Also, picking up grenade or grenade crafting materials in this game is lore-wise stupid because Solomon would never have these petty grenades in his keep because he can just use lesser demons and skeletal mages to hurl bombs at you if needed. 

The only real solution I can think of for it to work as a consumable is that rouge gets "an ether-net device" which allows him to replenish all his consumable weapons using online shopping app called "Amajohn" when out-of-combat. The lore part sounds silly but Solomon game's lore are never serious in its tone so it shouldn't be a big problem. 

Agratah

@Peppermaster

Yeah.. I see the problem.

The shopping app sounds pretty far fetched though.

Maybe the Rogues consumables could have a small mana bar on their own? Make it so that he creates his own grenades/traps/whatever when he’s got the time, and then with a limited amount of uses before he has to retreat(as in run a bit away and not attack) in order to replenish these. (I’m thinking of rogues as hit’n’run types anyway)
Maybe also have a tactical tumble for him that replenishes some of these.

Edit: I’m thinking it should be doable while in combat, but not while attacking.

He is supposed to be able to find hidden doors and such, no? Can’t be salvaging as he runs? Maybe without much explanation as to how he does it.

What’s your thought?

Also, about the mages being pretty op: I guess the other heroes have to be able to scale to about the same level of op-ness. (Maybe not in terms of damage for all of them)

Peppermaster

@Agratah

I think your idea is pretty much the best way to implement these Rouge consumables gameplay-wise.

Well, saying he is salvaging as he runs...that would not make sense if you are just circling the same room for an hour and somehow get a ton of gadgets. Considering that the University is helping players by giving things like magic key, we can at least say the University provides Rouge with some fabricator or magic box thing that sends or makes rouge's consumable weapons. Well, how would I explain how tactical tumble replenishes it? You basically pull out those items from the magic box thing while you tumble and there you go.

The shopping app idea can somehow fit to the Solomon universe because, according to the librarian in Solomon Dark, some arcane branches of research in the University are researching a way to live without getting out of bed and this shopping app could be the prototype gadget which they are developing and also a way to get some funding for the next project. Also, because capitalism is rampant in Solomon universe, having a shopping app would not be too weird than we think. If you have Solomon Dark, I recommend you to go to the solomon dark folder->data->dialogue->story->librarian and check out more Solomon lore. 

Agratah

@Peppermaster

I think the magic box would be a good explanation.

And it seems I will have to find Solomon Dark in my folders and check out the lore then. Thanks!